A MATTER OF RELIGION


Lately, I have been lucky enough to stumble upon some interesting people with whom I share very heated, in depth, and interesting theoretical debate. I myself, not being particularly attached to one affiliation of religion, am usually interested to hear what others have to say and offer, but am usually left scratching my head by realizing how completely attached some can be to the notion of their "God". Now, to preface, this will not be anti-religious or pro- religious rant. Nor will it be some sort of defense of my own opinions. The following is simply the transcripts of some very interesting debated emails that I shared with some very cool people, topics ranging from libertarianism to Christianity.

I like to think of myself as someone who is open mined enough to engage in these types of conversations without stomping off to my corner, shaking my head in confusion. But often times, I end up feeling more comfortable in the place that I am in, and more affirmed in my own beliefs.

For the purpose of this blog I will name the very Christian commenter "Peter" and I am "C".
Enjoy!

PETER:

I am a libertarian, I became one last fall before the election, the whole affair seemed so tremendously superficial and inflated, I just got fed up and started looking at third parties. I read Badnarik's essay's and was really blown away by how direct it was, I agreed with most of what he had to say, and his message was not cheapened. I voted for Badnarik and all the libertarians on my ballot. I think Noam Chomsky said he was an anarchy-libertarian, sometimes I get really enthused about chomsky and have little chomsky binges and get all indignant. Righteous indignation is nice from time to time but one finds that too much gall gets kind of lame after a while.

You should get religion, not just religion, but the good religion. That stuff we talked about a little bit that night at the blues club was only like the tip of the iceberg. It is weird that people don't see some of this, it is kind of like that thing about how once I was blind but now I can see, yeah, now that I can see out and around me a bit and kind of gauge what is going on it is strange to imagine being so blind before. Jesus takes you deep, when you get with him it is something else. Everything out there seems like superficial noise when you draw near to Jesus, there is this awesome indescribable peace, or this profound joix de vivre, you can literally get high in the Spirit. Jesus is like one of the best kept secrets there is out there. Don't be swayed by the abuse of cliches and the aesthetics involved, think of some of the things you learn when you start to think critically about the media, aesthetics are a formula to prime the will, In art you learn how to break beauty down into the elements and principles, things have different psychological implications, aesthetics are extremely manipulative. Like think for instance if the quintessence of evil were to be manifest in a innocent cuddly kitten, you can bet that people would still look at it and say awwww. I'd say that most of the stuff that turns our generation away from getting into the real substance of the good religion is aesthetic. Think of how the people you went to school with were, I bet that you could name bands that your peers listen to just by seeing what they are wearing, and that within the readimade aesthetic identities most rely on an implication of some sort of tragic darkness, and beyond that have an implicite unarticulated or even openly stated enmity against Jesus. You are a smart girl, I can tell that, you have a capacity for resilience, maybe it has something to do with that italian stuff, I urge you to read about Jesus, ike actually read a Gospel, I bet you have already. I recommend a translation that doen't use thee's and thou's and all that embellishment, and read a gospel, one of the first four books of the new testament. You might have learned alot about christianity, but even if you learn about christianity, like church doctrine and history, that is often shaded by the fact that humans are fallable, fortunately the preservation of the bible is meticulous and reliable. Please set down for a while what would hinder you from an honest unbiased look at this stuff.

Ok I'm tired of preaching, you are too genuine too just get swept up in all the worldly stuff that proves itself shallow over and over again, if not immediately then with time . transcend fasion and dull religion , embrace Jesus.

Ok I'm really tired of preaching, If I annoyed you by assailing you with the Gospel stick, just tell me and I'll tone it down, I won't stop wanting you to hook up with Jesus though. please respond if you have time. Some people feel uncomfortable when people display as much evangelistic zeal as I just did, Don't feel obligated to discuss religion beyond what you are comfortable with.

C:

There is a article called "Delusional Democracy" that I wrote in frustration at our whole political process that might interest you. I can't say that I have gotten that much into Libertarian literature, but I totally agree with you about 3rd parties, or 4th parties even. However, in our chronically bias and corrupt legal and political systems in this country, the other parties don't really seem to have enough impact, except to swing votes from one of two people that ultimately will be in power. It's the less of two evils theory i guess. I'm not condoning it, i am just being realistic. I think it sux though.

Something needs to change in a very "fall of the roman empire" type of way in this country in order for things to be shaken up enough for change. I mean think about the problems we are facing today. We live in a state that is very close to uprooting all of the policies for which we have lived for 200 years.

Now I believe that these systems are in dire need of revamping, however, there are a few liberties and balances that cannot be thrown off or aside. For instance, (I know you are religious and this is not meant to offend you), but the whole movement to undo separation of church and state. Now in a perfect world, we would all be able to live peacefully under one roof and share similar beliefs. But we don't.

So by infusing religion back into our government, we run the risk of isolating and separating the different cultures and religions in this country that we have today even more than they even are. Wasn't this country founded on the principles of freedom from religious persecution, be it Catholicism, Protestant, Judaism, whatever? In theory, People wanted to settle because they could supposedly live freely in a governed society and belief in smurfs if they wanted too.

Nowadays, there is the argument that schools should teach creationism and evolution. Well what about the little Jewish girl, or Muslim boy, or native American kid, who sit in these classrooms everyday. How fucking confused are they gonna be? Pretty soon are we going to have to separate all children to schools of religious beliefs? It is a conundrum.

I am open to people living and dying by their beliefs in life, however, they are YOUR beliefs and a free society should not have to follow.

I think that the only way to keep balance in a society, and to keep peace, is to leave the social programs, education, and governing systems, as neutral entities, and allow people to live among each other practicing their own beliefs on their own time. That saves a lot of conflict, and time that would be spent in arguments/debates about deciding policy.

Anyways, sorry about the rant. I do that sometimes.


PETER:

Ok, on the libertarian thing, yeah I realized that my vote didn't count but I will strongly object to the notion that it detracted from the two major parties votes. I approached voting in as honest a way as I could think of, well maybe that is a little more of a noble statement than it's worth. I voted for the candidate that I agreed with the most, I think that is the essential Idea in voting. Granted that I could have contributed to the bipartisan madness had I wanted to, and I knew that my candidate was not going to win, my vote was for badnarik, not for bush or carey, and after what my mind went thru in bipartisan thought neither of them could have gotten my vote. My vote was more valuable than most americans votes were. i represented a larger proportion of badnariks voters than any one person was a percentage of bush or carey. In fact I did more as an individual to bring badnarik victory than any one person did to bush or carey, I'm not absolutely sure but I think it is true. I don't know, maybe I'm being obstinate, but the larger political process was just too ,much for me to make a decision for either of the two big parties.
Another underlying motif in the political process that I cannot stand is the over use of the conservative/liberal breakup on everything. I postulate that the two party system forces people to think in red and blue or conservative and liberal, and I think that to attempt to view lifes issues from this paradigm is inadequate.

I urge you to reconsider your view on church and state. I will say that your reasoning Is clear and makes sense but I think you may benefit from a broader more general view of religion on the essential character of a nation. What I'm saying is that the view of religion you presented is sort of based on the premise that faith in God is impotent. Now granted, I don't think you or many people with similar views would feel comfortable saying to the effect that I think religion is impotent, because you probably don't believe that it is. (sorry, I don't like assuming so much but do bear with for the functionality of the statement). I think that many people's mental picture of the power of religion has a lot to do with mystical events or signs and wonders and profound encounters, and that God is otherwise detached. While I would say that it is true that signs and wonders and amazing things are a part of religion, a wonderful and cherished part too, backing up and looking at the seemingly mundane aspects of the effect of Faith in God. We have to remember that normal tangable existence as well as spiritual presence coexist in the seeming mundane/everyday things of life. Look at some of the things in the bible in the old testament, many of these things aren't just about the fireworks of mysctic encounter. God outlines to Moses things like hygenical practices, the basics of clean living while camping in the desert. Also functional things like a judicial system. There are even things in there about crop rotation, crop rotation that is more in depth than the farming methods we currntly use. This doesn't sound so profound initially but consider that the hygiene relavent ordanances come thousands of years before people have any idea that bacteria exists, they figured out that bacteria exists in 1683 and then like in the 1800's figured out that it causes disease. Think of the grotesque lack of proper hygiene practices in europe's history, or even in the civil war in the U.S., where more casualties were from sickness than from violence. Or on crop rotation think of the dustbowl in the 1920's or 30's in the U.S. in Oklahoma, because of poor farming practices like lack of crop rotation. People are born naked and helpless, we don't know much of anything, somebody needs to spell out clearly to people simple things like don't sleep with your mom. EVerybody would be like the folks on the Jerry springer show. It might be humerous to watch people from trailer parks duke out their inscestious soap opera conflicts, but that is a cheap thrill based in shock value and if it were going on in evry one of your neighbors houses and you were trying to raise a family that was wholesome and genuinely beneficial to the human endeavor you'd freak out. We have some morality in us instinctively, but human beings are way bad at determining right and wrong for ourselves, think of greed or the things that people do that you wish you never heard about. Human history isn't neat and tidy, it has it's dark points, plenty of them, but the light in all of this would not happen without some basic morality, and that is something best defined by someone beyond mankind alone, one with infinite foresight. 97.7 or something like that percent of religious believers in the united states are either Christian, Jewish, or Muslim, my 97.7 percent is rough, from something I read last night, anyhow. Jews Christians and Muslims all honor the Old testament, Jews honor it pretty much exclusively, Christians honor it and the New testament, Muslims honor it, they regard Jesus as a prophet too, and they have their own writings. Sure ther are miscelaneous other religions out there, and we should tolerate them as well, but in practices that involve religion with politics sufficient general ambiguity is used in the semantics that all believers can bow their Hearts to "God", Christians to Father/Son/Holy Spirit, Moslems to Allah, And Jews to YHWH, there might even be folks out there who are pagans or what so, but as long as they are polytheistic they probably won't mind a nod to God, if not to one then to another. Secularism sounds like it's nuetral but really, when most people, which is really true, most people do believe in God in some form, it is shutting everyone out.

So all that I just stated was just a practical measure on the inclusivity of acknowledgement of God in government, but beyond that, God is real, and why should He acknowledge a notion that throws Him Away to rely on their own delusions of how things should be. Do you really want the absolute authority over you to be the state? One can get away with disobeying the laws of the state, by lying cheating and stealing, or by offering bribes, the authority of the state is trumped by the inherent cleverness of man in his determination to have his own way. I know that for me what keeps me inclined toward doing what is right, doing what is right, admitting when I am wrong, and obeying the laws of the state is not the state itself, but the knowledge that I am loved by God more personally and more intimately than any other loves me or can love me, and that it hurts him when I knowingly do wrong in order to have my way in the World. I think that I have my share of kinks that aren't worked out yet but through Jesus's atonement formy wrongdoings, (which saying it that way makes it sound like I know technically how it works, I'm still working on that part) and his compassion and ongoing hand in my life, I will be saved and preserved to be a part of His Coming New Vision of Peace, which is Heaven on Earth.


C:

As far as what you responded to, in response to my response (Phew), I have to say that you still didn't really completely answer my question. Now I agree that I wouldn't want the State to have total control over me, but I also don't want a religious sect having control over me. Lets put this into a different kind of context.

Lets say You, are living your life day to day the way you always have, believing in Christianity, Jesus, and feeling fulfilled in the fact that you can be free to do so. There are other opinions, ideas, religions out there, but you are content with your own. Now, one day a group of people that represent a fictitious majority (Religion X for the sake of the argument), but not your religion, begin taking more and more control over the place in which you live.

Suddenly, your opinion is becoming drowned out among people telling you that they know the ultimate truth and that their beliefs in Religion X and their leader XX is the only truth and the sooner you understand that the better off you will be. Now you don't necessarily disagree with their or anyone elses beliefs, but you are comfortable with your own and don't understand why that should change.

Well in this fictitious example, it wouldn't really make a difference if it were just opinions, but its not. in our culture today, some of the religious views represent things that affect more than just our conversation. Look at stem cell research, abortion, prayer in schools. Now I'm not saying i agree or disagree with any of them, what I'm saying is that these are things that come under scrutiny because of religious beliefs and therefore set a precedent of how EVERYONE lives in our society.

Now back to Religion X, how would you feel being a Christian, living among all of the Religion Xers shouting to get your attention. Magnify that by about a 10 and you start to grasp how I feel.

I think it is great that you have such faith, and that you are willing to teach others. And that in your heart you believe, no feel, it to be true.

But remove yourself from your emotions and consider that if you were anyone else, your beliefs may be different based on what you have been taught, experienced, and felt in your life.

Now tell me, how are you any more right than anyone else in your beliefs? Forget all the historical stuff and the bible. ( i know that may be hard) Look at life, removed from what you have been taught, as just life, with a higher purpose that maybe we are not supposed to know.

I was telling W, that i believe that there is something greater than ourselves, but I think it is silly for us to believe that we have even figured out a fraction of what it is. As long as you live your life as a good person, and enjoy each breath that you take, the reason we take those breaths become secondary.

I understand that most people are not strong enough to live their lives without a purpose. I mean, emotionally weak people need a reason to get up out of bed everyday and if they can find a reason through believing in GOD than I think that is amazing.

I also understand that there are brilliant minds such as yourself who can give me reason after reason why and how Jesus existed and that he is coming back, so on and so forth. But at the end of the day, I would have gotten out of bed anyways, you know? And I would have basked in the notion that there are millions of other people out there who share the same beliefs, through different stories, that I hope to learn one day.

I have faith in people. (most of the time!)
I have faith in myself.
I think that is an amazing thing.


PETER:

I started to reply to your last e-mail, but it got erased before I finished it, that or I lost track of it. I can't remember exactly what we were talking about to perfect detail, but I believe we were talking about church and state, and my response was going to be on why it is beneficial to honor God in the public arena, though a number of different belief systems exist among the population. The reason I think it is beneficial to honor God in the public arena just in general I think was outlined in the last response. I think that if I remember correctly I stated that regard for God is healthy because of the basic foundation it lays for justice and cultural establishment, a lot of things we take for granted. To that, before before I will address the plurality of belief systems I will add that if we were to have only a secular authority as the highest standard of morality layed out in our societal conscious, it would be disastrous. Humanity is not fit to claim that it can set the standard for the highest authority, note that on your website you rail against corruption and the rediculious practices in the government, we cannot "get it right" on our own. The mechanisms of our psyche that demand self interest in order for basic survival of the species corrupt our most righteous aspirations. People who mean well still abuse and oppress other groups of people to atrocious extent, thinking they are right, only because their scope does not extend to understand the needs of the groups they oppress. People are magnificent creatures, but consider that it is impossible for people to understand the needs of other people who are foreign to them. We can be our cruelest in our efforts to be kind even. There is probably a lot more to be said about what I just stated but I will continue and address regard for God in the public arena within the context of religious plurality. The God we should address in public is the most high God, the absolute top, the greatest God. We should address no one smaller, I mean, why should anyone worship a god who also has a God over him/her/it. Then beyond that, anything that would claim to be worthy of worship who were not really the absolute highest authority, would be pretty pretentious. I think that is pretty essential, I mean, we should not in our acknowledgement regard some generic god. So far I've written purely in terms of concept of diety, in rational terms, I mean, even an athiest could agree with that, I think, they might disagree that there is a God or gods, but they would probably agree that if perchance they were wrong on the exitence thing and that there were a God or Gods that only the absolute highest most powerful God is worthy of worship. If there is someone out there who wants to worship a diety they regard as inferior, they have betrayed their worship by regarding that god as inferior, and have further demeaned themselves by worshipping an inferior. I will not for a second consider that there is some other supreme diety than God who has revealed himself through the Bible, that is what I believe, and not only believe by mere feeling, but on the soundest rationale I have a capacity for, I would even extend to say I know that the God of the Bible is God. I do not care to demean any human being that disagrees, because by believing in God I believe that all humans are made in His image and that they are all wonderful creations. I would say that I pursue God, but I don't know everything there is to know about Him, I have learned a lot, and I want to learn as much as I possibly can. At this time I don't know what he looks like for instance. I would want every man woman and child to render their hearts to Him, but I understand that I cannot force this to come about, that this is a matter of the heart and that it would be wrong to force someone into believing, because that would be corrupted belief. So for plurality, I can live in a country where other people worship God in a different manner. I am cool with Jews, they've got it right I'd say, but I understand that a number of factors play into why most of them don't believe in Jesus. The Jews were waiting for God to send their messiah, and when he came, they had distinct ideas about what he was going to do, but those distinct ideas were not in line with what God had planned. They estimated what it was going to be like, and didn't recognize it while it happened. Muslims believe in the Bible, but they've taken on some other information, and they kind of don't view it as absolute. Islam also advances forcefully, accept allah or die was how it was for a long time, I'm sure for that matter christians had some of the same blunders, but those action would have been the product of their minds not Gods. Islam advanced largely violently for a long time in history and that accounts for much of its spread and establishment, and a lot of the world then has islam as thier belief system. That takes care of the 3 major religions, most of the believers out there. I know there are people who believe a lot of other things out there too, but I think those things would be too much too addres in this letter specifically except to say that anyone who believes in god believes that their god is supreme or believes their god is second-rate, but they would probably pray still. In a prayer for the sake of our nation, it is no question that my heart would be bowed toward the God of the Bible. But my neighbor might have his heart bowed to Allah, or somebody else, I am still going to love him, I might if context provides tell him about my faith, but I will not bludgeon him with it. To have secular authority doesn't only offend Christians, but also Jews, Muslims, any pagan, or deist, and possibly agnostic. Secular supreme authority means that athiests rule that humanity and all its vices and folly is the supreme authority.

seperation of church and state never meant that religion was to be out of the public arena, it was meant that the government would not dictate things to the religious. It was put in place so that the government could not send a preacher to jail for preaching. That applies to imams and rabbis and other religious leaders too, that they cannot be forced by the government to teach and preach as the government wills.

Look at the abolition of slavery, look at the civil rights movement. Those things happened because people regarded God over the authority of the government. That didn't happen because of secular authority.


C:

I don't think that I have so much of a problem with people leading the masses with religion to motivate, inspire, help, etc etc. I have a problem with the packaging.
Stay with me here. You said in your last email that you refuse to believe that there is any other GOD but the one that you believe in. And that most major religions are similar in their beliefs. That is fine with me. What I can't understand is why can't it just be "GOD" without having to conform your thinking to one story or another.

If in fact, it is the one supreme GOD, it doesn't really matter what story you believe, as long as you believe something, right? I think that you can have the Bible, or the Koran, or whatever. I think it is all the same. I believe that whatever helps you live your life, is what you should believe in.

Can't I just say that I believe that there is a higher power, without having to commit myself to the very details of how and why? We all know that historically humans are very mischevious and forgetful people. How can we trust them getting the story straight? Thus being human. Why is it so important to focus on the details? As long as you live a good life, treat others with respect, and have LOVE in your heart, every little detail of creation to the present, is not necessary. I believe history is important, so in that sense, I understand why people would join such heated debates, but I also think that getting the facts straight, often leads to more problems than solutions.

And so, I guess what I am trying to say is, I think it is wonderful that you have found what you deem to be the ultimate "truth". But I feel that I have my own sense of truth in my heart, without having to wrap my brain and heart around one particular version or the other. Does that make sense?

At this point in my life, I do not feel lost or misguided. I do not feel like I need answers to questions about GOD. I do not seek the ultimate "Truth". I feel that I am blessed, and I feel that there is something greater than myself. And because of that I do not seek confirmation. Maybe thats just me.

Anyways, if your GOD is all forgiving and I am wrong, I dont think he/she will hold it against me!!!! J/K

Fourth of July......


It is hard to celebrate sometimes, when you are surrounded by drama. And it's easy for anyone to get cynical when you live in a country that seems to get worse and worse economically and politically every year.

And usually, I find myself to be one of those cynics. This year for some reason, I felt good.

Last week at work, as every one marveled at getting out early and spending an extra day celebrating the "Holidays", I couldn't help but have an instant gag reflex. Not that I don't enjoy having a day or twelve off from work, cause I do.

I just can't help but roll my eyes at people that run around with fake patriotism yelling "Happy Fourth of July", when to them I know that the founding of this country has less significance to them than reality TV. To them, its BBQ's and fireworks, which is great and all, but not really the point.

But as I thought more about it, I realized that the process of celebration itself is enough to give the whole point of Fourth of July meaning.

Freedom. Freedom to sit around in your underwear all day if you want to. Eat a nasty hot dog. Don't take a shower. Get drunk on cheap beer at 2 in the afternoon, or 2 at night on a Sunday cause you can sleep in Monday morning. Be lazy. Be social. Be whatever.

So on this seemingly ordinary Fourth of July I had an amazing time. And I didn't even have to go anywhere. Living in Chicago has its perks here and there, but it was only tonight when I found one of the coolest ones.

Starting at about 7:30 I could stand on my porch and watch fireworks. I didn't have to haul myself to a cluttered field of families, I could stand on my porch, in my pajamas, and watch fireworks.

In every direction there was light and sound. It was as if there were a million tiny thunderclaps going off every second, in every direction.

And it went on for hours.

At that moment, standing alone on my porch, previously feeling lonely for not going out with friends or family, I felt content because realized that I wasn't alone.

Sometimes in a city it is hard to realize how much life is around you. Even though you see people everywhere, it doesnt really hit you. But tonight, it did.

Everyone had slowed down their lives, just for a few hours, to celebrate. In a city of endless possiblity is seems impossible for everyone to be doing the exact same thing that at the exact same time. But they were.

In every direction people were sharing moments. Lots of them. Hours and hours of them. It was unlike anything I have ever seen and felt. I looked around from my porch and saw other people like me, marvelling at the show we didn't even have to leave home for.

And for once I felt utterly grateful to be celebrating Fourth of July, with thousands of people I dont' even know.

With Liberty and Justice for Some

As people all over the U.S. join together this weekend for a little independence Day celebrations, it makes me wonder what we are really clinging on to.

This week marks the retirement of Supreme Court Justice Sandra Day O'Connor, and conservatives and liberals alike are scrambling about in speculation and anticipation.

And I'm not afraid to say it......I'm just a wee bit worried.

First of all, I know O'Connor was not your typical conservative. Although many of her opinions had more conservative leanings, there were always just a few moderate opinions that gave me hope for a more balanced bench. She was a voice of reason and often fairness, sometimes facing harsh opposition.

For months everyone was assuming that Chief Justice Rehnquist would be retiring, and liberals every where were freaking out. Who would replace him? Think about it, have you seen the candidates for O'Connor's replacement?

Granted Rehnquist was also a conservative, but he was also a defender of the law, and the judicial system as we know it. His steadfast beliefs that the judiciary should be safeguarded and kept separate from the legislative branch, is something that seems to be lacking in today's political arena.

Do we honestly believe that someone like say, Attorney General Gonzales will be able to keep the ever present "Bush" voice out of his ear?? I mean the guy owes his whole political success, and career to the "W."

As potential candidates go, there have been about 8 people mentioned so far, and all seem to have more conservative leanings (to put it lightly). I just hope that the administration will choose someone who understands what upholding the laws means, and that treating every situation fairly without personal relationship influence, is vital to the future of "democracy", or whatever is left of it.