Following the posting of my relgious debate with "Peter", I had an interesting conversation with "W" who we will call "Will". Below is a transcript of our conversation.
"W":
(Peter) and I (Will) both have devoted our lives to Jesus Christ but there are details about our faith that we disagree about because God has not revealed Himself completely to us at this time. So right now, we only see in part and know in part, but one day we will fully know about God when Jesus Christ returns. CS Lewis, (the author of the Chronicles of Narnia: the Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe,) wrote a book called “Mere Christianity.” I mention it because it is common-sense reasoning for Christianity without using the bible. You may have heard of it, because it is a classic in Christian literature, but it describes the current state of the world, the human nature and condition, and argues that the world is ordered and controlled by one God, and follows that everything in nature and the world points to a one single God who has control over the tiniest aspect of life. It is written, that “No one is without excuse because all of nature majesty witnesses to God.” Abraham is the founder of Judaism, Islam and Christianity, and he did not have the organized religion system the bible outlines, but he recognized that there a powerful creator that gave him life, and he had faith.
The world did not create itself out of nothing, and arguments about common descent don’t dodge the order of the world. We are like children who think they own their parent’s house, and forget that “life is absurd” (to misquote Sartre.) How is it that I didn’t exist 27 years ago, but now I think that I created myself or have always existed, because this world is mine?
I think it’s easy to get hung up on bad examples of Christians, or blame governments for oppression and spend all our time serving our common man, so that we loose site that there is a God who has made everything, and that he is in absolute control of the tiniest detail. Our pride is our biggest enemy. I don’t think it’s hard to believe in God at all, but what makes it hard is our pride. We want to be in absolute control of our lives, and do anything we want when we want it. Jesus was not concerned with governments, but did what he was required as a citizen. America is one country that has only existed 200yrs, and will likely disappear like all the great empires in the past. When our constitution was formed, the framers were trying to create a government that honored God, but they are men, so if there are flaws in the system its okay, because we have a perfect God, that if we follow Him, then our lives will be fine.
"Peter" and I both believe that God is absolutely in control, and that Jesus Christ is His son, and that Jesus Christ is returning. Things like politics for example. I voted for Bush, and like Him, and I don’t mind if my vote doesn’t “count” because I believe that God is the one that runs all governments in the world and that if I follow God, everything will turn out fine. I know this by the examples of believers throughout history, and the evidence of the bible, etc. The bible is a religious document, but it is natural that we would observe an all powerful god, who controls the smallest atom, and know truths about him. It is obvious that the world was created, and all the commands in the bible are observances of this wonderful Creation. "Peter" discussed hygiene in levitical laws given to the Israelites. It was a brilliant example (to praise my friend) because it shows that Christianity is not a fiction, but is entwined with creation, so that they are inseparable. There is not a secular world and a religious world, but there is the way the world works, and then there is man’s attempt to remove God from creation because the world justifies it. The bible testifies that God is in control, because he shows us truth before we realize them, and as man has progressed, God has revealed himself more and more, through prophets and history, that is exclusive to Christianity. The original document reinforces God’s dominion because it is evidence that He is in control, like I said when all nature testifies to God.
Now you mentioned many truths but I don’t believe that is true. I believe that science and Christianity are inseparable, but all of the details are not defined. Christianity is a word we use to describe our vignette of the truth, but there is no more accurate religion in the world, or ever will be. New religions form from out pride, and desire to be God, and do our own will. God walked with Adam and Eve in the garden, and since the Fall, man has progressed further away from God. Buddhism, Islam, etc, are versions of Christianity that start with the truth, but then include the mutilations and altercations of man; each with its own tactic for distracting away from God. Even Christianity has had its dark times when man has tried to manipulate it, like the Reformation of the Catholic Church, or the Crusades, etc.
The glory of Christianity is it allows imperfect men to be considered sons of God like Jesus Christ, although we are imperfect. We are unable to know God and to follow God on our own. It’s important to know that it’s the sovereignty of God that has allowed the Bible to be maintained, but it’s also obvious that we would be unable to quiet the voice of creation, (which testifies of God) so that no matter how hard we have tried to hide the voice, ultimately, the truth will never be quieted. So it is impossible for men to tamper with the Bible. Like the reformation, when the Catholic Church tried to reinterpret the scriptures for power and control, the Holy Spirit caused the church to rise up and recapture the truth.
I can go on and on about how God is in absolute control and that is why Christianity is exclusive and true. "Peter" did a good job of arguing that also. This is why I am not so concerned about politics, but I am concerned about serving God. Christianity will never leave, because Jesus is coming back soon.
I tried to touch on how we are just waves in the ocean, that appear and disappear, and worrying about controlling our lives and making the most of it is really not something we can do. God decides the fate of the world, and he does use tragedy and pain to accomplish his will. I remember reading about Aaron’s son dying when he made an incorrect sacrifice. There is a great freedom in trusting God and following him, and knowing that we are temporary and have no real control. God has shrouded himself because of our sinful nature, so that we don’t know everything about him, and although "Peter" and I, and all other Christians have a personal experience with God, God is still the same and unchanging, and in absolute control. Debates about politics and religions and such will be ceased when Jesus returns, because there will no longer be this veil over our faces, and we will see God face to face, and know the truth and find freedom in it.
C:
Ok, where do I start. I dont mind the conversation, but what I dont understand is why everytime a valid question is posed, the response is "Because I believe" or its "Gods will".
To me, that is a way of avoiding very obvious truths and questions. Everything I or any skeptic might say is easily combated with the rehashed words over and over again that have been drilled into your minds.
I think that its amazing that you believe in something so great. But I also think it is sad when one shuts off his ability to question. Where would we be as a species if there was no one to question or go against the grain? I know your answers already......"it was gods will for that person to go against the grain."..yadayadayada.
But really, you believe and live your lives along this very straight line, choosing to believe and refusing to question. I refuse to live my life that way.
Another thing, you said in your last email that if we "choose to follow HIM, our lives will be fine."
Are you kidding? Is that not the biggest piece of religious propoganda used to scare people into becoming well mannered and devout followers? I know many people who CHOSE to believe in him, whose lives were, well, NOT fine.
And I mean no offense in my statements, but you really have to hear what you are saying sometimes. You said in your email that Christianity is one of the most accurate religions in the world. WHAT? According to WHO? The Bible, Your own personal blanket? Christians? Why yes, of course you are going to believe that your beliefs are accurate. In the same way that I believe that the New York Giants are the best football team in the world. According to ME. I assure you that there are many people who would dispute that.
I wasnt going to bring this up until W mentioned it, but you discussed the Levitical issues that C was talking about in your last email. He was using that reference as proof that the Word is true. What you are both forgetting is that while, hygiene was discussed, there was also discussion of things that don't make any sense at all. We can get more in depth about that another time.
And your discussion of pride being the enemy. I disagree. Pride is not the enemy. Ignorance is. I believe that we have very few things in life that we can hold on to and call our own. Our deeds, accomplishments, experiences. And without pride, the human ego would not have a reason to go on with life. I am proud, well, to be proud. That is what sets me apart from other people. My ability to work harder, acheive goals, and gain valuable relationships and experiences keeps me going. I do not live my life according to pride and do things only for recognition, instead I enjoy quiet moments where I can reflect and know that I am responsible for the happiness or drama in my life. You understand?
One more thing. It seems to me that you are under the assumption that all things have come from your religion and its affect on the world. However, i think it is very dangerous to say things that infer that all cultures, including eastern cultures religions are spun from Christianity.
I think you said something about Buddism being the same until man mutilated and altered its principles. Where are you getting your information from exactly. (and if you say the bible Im going to kill you!) Really, I would like to know.
Okay, back to work!!
No one has committed intellectual suicide, but we have realized that the truth is that Jesus Christ is God, and that He’s coming back soon. I don’t stop at every green light, because I’ve learned over time that green means go, and it would be foolish or even dangerous to stop at the green lights because someone could hit me. I still ask questions, but both "Peter" and I are satisfied that there is no greater truth than Christ. Of course there are things we question all the time, but we consider some things as facts. viz. I have no doubt that Jesus Christ died on the cross and rose again, but if a TV preacher tells me that he’s selling holy water from the Jordan river and I have to buy it to go to heaven, I’m going to question it against what I’ve learned is truth.
We will be fine if we trust in God. I believe this life is temporary and like a mist that disappears quickly. I am here maybe 100yrs, and in comparison, that’s not long at all. I think that my entire life could be in torture, but once Jesus returns, or my life ends, then all my suffering will be nothing compared to future joy. There is no promise that I will be content in life, and God could strike me dead at any moment. Pleasure does not define what is good either.
Pride is the embodiment of all that is wrong, and it is rebellion against God. Cory made a good contest that there are so many evils in the world he wished he never knew about. I think that seeing ignorance as the enemy is our pride saying, we must understand to be better and have more power, but ignorance is to let go of that power and have faith that you will be okay. We are slaves to the lives we live and that’s okay. I would consider innocent children better than a man like me who uses his knowledge for gain. It’s written that Knowledge puffs up, but Love builds up. ;)
Nothing is truly our own, because we are given everything. From our thoughts, to our language, to our reasoning, to our six senses to our very life, it was all given to us, and there is nothing we have that we can say we truly earned. Life is a gift and when you treat it as a gift and not strangle it, you become free of control. If you want your life, you have to lay it down because if you try to force it, you’ll lose it in the end.
I’m not saying that all religions spun from Christianity, but rather Christianity is the Word of God, and although we were not aware of Christianity, the truth about God has always existed. Abraham was not fully aware of Jesus Christ, but it was planned before life began that Jesus would come. There was an ideal of Adam and Eve, when they were innocent in the garden. They ate the apple, because they doubted God, and their knowledge led them further into sin. So I’m saying that God’s truth has been the same since the beginning, but all eastern religions are spun off from that truth. That’s obvious because how desperate many try to tie into the root to gain credibility. "Peter" said that Islam points to Ishmael, as its entry point, and even religions like Mormonism tie into the bible at some point. As for Buddhism and Hinduism they’re removing the Almighty god from it and freeing yourself from the cycle… Buddhism is an extension of Hinduism, and you can see the procession away from God. Hinduism removes God and says that nature punishes itself through Karma, but Buddhism says we don’t need to go through 83million births to be freed, but we can have nirvana on our own. Anyway, that’s a very detailed argument, and I’m more concerned with Jesus Christ. I believe once you understand Jesus Christ, the flaws of other religions become very visible
C:
I would rather be a slave in this life, and enjoy the ever present beauties that life has to offer, than exchange it for feeling content with a "faith". The difference between me and you guys essentially comes down to the fact that you are not comfortable living this life without feeling that there is Jesus, and a reason for it all. I on the other hand am comforted by knowing that I could never ever really know it all, and wouldn't want to. I dont need to put labels on things to feel happy, or sad. I don't need to wear a shroud of "faith" in order to understand why I feel things the way I do. I just know I feel.
I think it is very arrogant to say that you understand Jesus Christ. I have said before and I will say it again. If there is a higher purpose, what makes you so sure that you Understand what the real purpose is. You are human. I know what you are thinking.....because your love of Christ is enough. I say, bullshit. You are relying on the same instinct to turn inward for solace, that I use. Except when you come back out you are armed with your version of security, "Christianity", and I come out with inner perspective. I don't think it is pride when I admit to knowing nothing. How could it be?
As for knowledge puffing up, I hope to be the size of the Stay Puff Marshmallow Man from Ghostbusters. I love to learn, open my mind, explore new depths, as I am with you in discussion. And I feel built up with love everytime I take a breath. you dont have to trade one for the other.
Your search for "truth" is ultimately a search for divine knowledge, without which you feel you would have no purpose.
Anyway, I think that we all could go back and forth forever. A seemingly endless debate of words and will. It will always have the same outcome though. You are both truly happy in your place in life, and I in mine. I have enjoyed our talks, and feel that if more people communicated as openly and freely, we would all be in better shape.
